Smooth Afghans

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Smooth Afghans
Topic Started: Nov 18 2009, 04:49 AM (276 Views)
DeviodOvTalent	Nov 18 2009, 04:49 AM Post #1
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	I have this picture on my blog and I got a comment on it recently, which reminded me it was up there, and I thought y'all might enjoy it. Posted Image These Afghans were gifted to French President Pompidou by the King of Afghanistan at some point in the late sixties/early seventies. What is important about these dogs is not that they are smooth, because we know that smooth Afghans occur, but that they were bred and produced a litter of entirely smooth pups. This means they were homozygous, carrying two copies of the smooth gene, and had smooth parents. Smooth Afghans in the West occur as 'cropouts', where one of the two long coat genes mutates back to the dominant smooth state, from 'normal' parents. When these dogs are bred, they will produce both smooth and coated pups. IOW, the existence of homozygous smooth Afghans means that smooth is indeed a naturally occurring coat and it is neither unethical nor irresponsible to breed from smooths even if they are not mentioned in the standard, and cannot be shown. Stepping down from soapbox.



Paul	Nov 18 2009, 06:59 PM Post #2
Advanced Member Posts: 102 Group: Members Member #269 Joined: August 14, 2009	Wow these are stunning, I saw a smooth afghan in a book many years ago and would love to see one in the flesh. I guess they are not fashionable so will not get to see one. Showing has a lot to answer for!



DeviodOvTalent	Nov 18 2009, 07:18 PM Post #3
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	More on smooths.



Saluqihounds	Nov 18 2009, 07:39 PM Post #4
Administrator Posts: 1,568 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: March 31, 2006 Gender: Male Location: Scotland	The fact of there being smooths among the feathered/coated populations of all the Saluki/Tazi types should of been enough to make smooths excepted without question. Perhaps then there would of been less emphasis on extreme coat on the coated dogs and more acceptance of the functional coat. Paul/Joanna, Here is another smooth in Kabul taken by a friend of a friend, further proof that they are simply out there. Posted Image



DeviodOvTalent	Nov 18 2009, 08:25 PM Post #5
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	Quote: The fact of there being smooths among the feathered/coated populations of all the Saluki/Tazi types should of been enough to make smooths excepted without question. No, no, no. That would make sense, and we can't have that :lol1: Quote: Perhaps then there would of been less emphasis on extreme coat on the coated dogs and more acceptance of the functional coat. No. I can't think of a single coated breed that the show ring hasn't corrupted, including Salukis. I actually read something the other day, written by a judge, that said Salukis must have a lot hair on the feet between the toes. Gah. Once Afghans came to the west the quest for coat began immediately. Sirdar of Ghazni, one of the early dogs with a very heavy coat, produced sixty-some odd offspring. (I believe Sirdar, like Zardin, was an outlier.) The Afghan very quickly became a Show Dog, and true function has very little to do with Show Dogs. Something about the show ring brings out the hair stylist in people. Link/pic is not working. Edited by DeviodOvTalent, Nov 18 2009, 08:26 PM.



michaelhunter	Nov 18 2009, 09:36 PM Post #6
Newbie Posts: 8 Group: Members Member #290 Joined: September 21, 2009	very interesting. would love to see one in the flesh. michael



Saluqihounds	Nov 19 2009, 07:18 AM Post #7
Administrator Posts: 1,568 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: March 31, 2006 Gender: Male Location: Scotland	DeviodOvTalent Nov 18 2009, 08:25 PM Quote: The fact of there being smooths among the feathered/coated populations of all the Saluki/Tazi types should of been enough to make smooths excepted without question. No, no, no. That would make sense, and we can't have that :lol1: ####Makes sense? What does that mean? ;) Quote: Quote: Perhaps then there would of been less emphasis on extreme coat on the coated dogs and more acceptance of the functional coat. No. I can't think of a single coated breed that the show ring hasn't corrupted, including Salukis. I actually read something the other day, written by a judge, that said Salukis must have a lot hair on the feet between the toes. Gah. Once Afghans came to the west the quest for coat began immediately. Sirdar of Ghazni, one of the early dogs with a very heavy coat, produced sixty-some odd offspring. (I believe Sirdar, like Zardin, was an outlier.) The Afghan very quickly became a Show Dog, and true function has very little to do with Show Dogs. Something about the show ring brings out the hair stylist in people. Link/pic is not working. I think I applied rather a large amount of wishful thinking when wrote that. I've never really known any real benefit of more than a little amount of toe fuzz, I have noticed benefit from the fuzzy backs of the hocks and pasterns on massively abrasive ground Ameerah has little to none and does get more grazes to these areas than Tariq ever did. Again it comes down to moderation doesn't it, the show seen never seems to have grasped that concept very well. As for the show ring bringing out the Hair stylist in people, I've never quite understood that as I'd rather be out enjoying life with my dogs than stood grooming constantly, coming from someone who earns a living from grooming you would think I would be more appreciative of their efforts as without the exaggerated coats people would not have to pay me a fortune to groom them.



DeviodOvTalent	Nov 19 2009, 09:38 PM Post #8
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	michaelhunter Nov 18 2009, 09:36 PM very interesting. would love to see one in the flesh. michael Give me two generations and I can make you one.



DeviodOvTalent	Nov 19 2009, 09:52 PM Post #9
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	Quote: Again it comes down to moderation doesn't it, the show seen never seems to have grasped that concept very well. This is actually an interesting concept and I think it comes down to the concept of breeding to a standard of perfection. The 'average' dog gets lost in the shuffle and by emphasizing the 'perfect' dog, the gene pool contracts. People gravitate towards uniqueness and exaggeration and so it's no surprise that the show ring tends to reward exaggeration. Combine that with inadequate education of judges and it's a recipe for disaster. Meanwhile, the 'average' dog that still retains functional conformation and breed type, but does not have that special combination of conformation, movement and attitude, goes by wayside and is relegated either to being 'just a pet' or if it's lucky, used by the working dog enthusiast. I hate the concept of a standard of perfection and feel that if a standard must be used it should be a standard of acceptable variation. Quote: As for the show ring bringing out the Hair stylist in people, I've never quite understood that as I'd rather be out enjoying life with my dogs than stood grooming constantly, coming from someone who earns a living from grooming you would think I would be more appreciative of their efforts as without the exaggerated coats people would not have to pay me a fortune to groom them. Now you've ferreted out the real reason I'm working to reduce coat in my dogs. I'm lazy and would rather do something else than brush!



Paul	Nov 20 2009, 08:59 AM Post #10
Advanced Member Posts: 102 Group: Members Member #269 Joined: August 14, 2009	Now you've ferreted out the real reason I'm working to reduce coat in my dogs. I'm lazy and would rather do something else than brush! And thats why smooths are so much easier to live with! having said that they still need a fair bit of brushing but after a day in the field its easier to wash and check their feet, which seem to hold out as well as the feathered saluki's. We've had smooth salukis for almost 25 years and rarely have issues with feet (hope this isnt going to be a bad omen)



AHC	Dec 21 2009, 02:26 AM Post #11
Newbie Posts: 2 Group: Members Member #332 Joined: December 7, 2009	The two dogs in the original photo are Sloughi which is why they bred true to the smooth coat. Smooth Afghans appear randomly in litters and don't breed more smooths even when bred with another smooth Afghan. Although I believe some smooth afghans have been culled in the past there has always been interest in them and many people in afghan circles would jump at the chance to own one. There is so much more to an afghan than the coat, many people, myself included, have afghans in spite of the coat rather than because of it. Smooth afghans apparently can be and have been shown in afghan classes but have not done well in the ring which I guess is inevitable. Afghan coats don't take anywhere near the amount of work that people usually imagine although obviously as with any long coated breed you have to be prepared to put some work in but it is very rewarding. I have found that there are many very different types of people involved in showing.



mah90330	Dec 21 2009, 05:50 AM Post #12
Member Posts: 20 Group: Members Member #265 Joined: August 6, 2009	Actually they are smooth Afghans. The original website is this one http://sloughi.tripod.com/sloughiworld/wrongstatements.html About mistaken statements about Sloughi in the past, which is why this photo is on there. They were a gift to the French president from an Afghani breeder in Afghanistan. They were also bred together and produced smooth puppies. Edited by mah90330, Dec 21 2009, 05:52 AM.



AHC	Dec 21 2009, 11:39 AM Post #13
Newbie Posts: 2 Group: Members Member #332 Joined: December 7, 2009	"If the Sloughis were smooth Afghans, some would be carriers for long coat and would have long coated puppies, which they don't." These dogs are in the pedigrees of quite a few Sloughi's, none have had any remotely long haired offspring. Also the coat texture of a smooth afghan and a sloughi is very different which would also come out. It's likely that some unusual colour would also be thrown up.



DeviodOvTalent	Dec 21 2009, 05:51 PM Post #14
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	Quote: The two dogs in the original photo are Sloughi which is why they bred true to the smooth coat. No. Smooth is a dominant gene and will always produce smooth pups when bred to a coated dog. The fact that these dogs produced a litter of all smooth pups simply means that they were homozygous, carrying two smooth genes. It does not mean they were Sloughi. The caption on the photo, though hard to read, indicates these dogs were from the King of Afghanistan's kennels, a gift to the president of France. Looking at their structure and heads, they are most definitely Afghan hounds, not Sloughi. Quote: Smooth Afghans appear randomly in litters and don't breed more smooths even when bred with another smooth Afghan. Although I believe some smooth afghans have been culled in the past there has always been interest in them and many people in afghan circles would jump at the chance to own one. No. Afeena Mastermind in the UK was bred and produced a litter of both smooth and coated pups. Rogger of Shot At Glory of Cyprus was also bred and produced a feathered puppy, it was a dual sire breeding and that was his only pup. http://www.ahinternational.net/gallery2/v/kennelname/unitedkingdom/ukkennel/afeena/ This indicates that a cropout smooth Afghan, one that appears from coated parents due to a mutation of one of the coat genes back to the dominant smooth state, will carry one smooth gene and one coated gene, thus producing both smooth and coated pups. This also happens occasionally in Salukis and other breeds. Quote: Although I believe some smooth afghans have been culled in the past there has always been interest in them and many people in afghan circles would jump at the chance to own one. And many people in Afghan circles think that breeding smooths is inherently unethical, because the standard does not include them, even thought they are a recognize type in the COO, called Laghars, or Luckbak. Quote: Smooth afghans apparently can be and have been shown in afghan classes but have not done well in the ring which I guess is inevitable. There is no standard for Afghans that includes the smooth form. Rogger of Shot At Glory has been shown, as an exhibition by his breeder. He did not place due to the issue with the standard. A smooth dog could not earn a placement or cc due to the fact that it doesn't meet the requirement for coat in the standard.



mah90330	Dec 21 2009, 10:14 PM Post #15
Member Posts: 20 Group: Members Member #265 Joined: August 6, 2009	Quote: These dogs are in the pedigrees of quite a few Sloughi's No these two aren't. The smooth Afghan L'Karla Diane is in some lines, but not all, and these dogs are not in Sloughi lines as far as I know.


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