Windy Glen Sighthounds

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Windy Glen Sighthounds; Racing/Aboriginal type Afghan
Topic Started: Dec 4 2008, 06:42 PM (756 Views)
Saluqihounds	Dec 4 2008, 06:42 PM Post #1
Administrator Posts: 1,568 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: March 31, 2006 Gender: Male Location: Scotland	Just came across this link on Hound Talk, some really handy looking Racing/aboriginal type Afghan's



ohiovalley	Dec 4 2008, 07:39 PM Post #2
Advanced Member Posts: 172 Group: Members Member #154 Joined: August 19, 2008	They are nice aren't they? They are from German racing lines (el Durani kennel) imported by Sally Papin. Some years back, (before I ever imagined access to the taigan world! ), I was hoping Sally might breed. But she told me then...they were super fast on the oval track...no one was interested in using the males...and many folks wouldn't even compete against her any more! They won plenty. Then I lost touch. Did she breed? Ohio Valley



DeviodOvTalent	Dec 4 2008, 11:11 PM Post #3
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	There is a link to some of the European racing Afghans around here somewhere. Very nice dogs with proper coats. I especially like that little gold bitch.



Saluqihounds	Dec 5 2008, 09:33 PM Post #4
Administrator Posts: 1,568 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: March 31, 2006 Gender: Male Location: Scotland	Some really nice looking Afghans on there which certainly interest me however Afghans breed soley for racing wouldn't be enough alone for me I'd like to see some natural terrain hunting ability as well. I have a feeling intensive breeding for racing could loose some of the intelligence I like in the Oriental types?



DeviodOvTalent	Dec 5 2008, 10:37 PM Post #5
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	Saluki Dec 5 2008, 09:33 PM I have a feeling intensive breeding for racing could loose some of the intelligence I like in the Oriental types? Not necessarily sure about intelligence but running on a flat surface is very different than running up and down lumpy terrain. For an Afghan I personally like a good tilt to the pelvis and hips set high on the spine so they protrude even when the dog is in good weight. The hind legs should be set under the dog. An Afghan with that type of conformation should have no problems bounding over rough terrain or making quick changes in direction. They should also be able to hop up and down readily on the hind legs, very springy. My own dogs that I really like would not do well on flat open ground, they don't have the speed. Conformation bred dogs typically will have the pelvic tilt right but the hind legs are so long it's difficult for the dog to get them underneath the body, which results in the whole assembly being weak. I believe such a dog, worked heavily, would break down very quickly. The racing Afghans rear quarters remind me a great deal of the 'desert type' Afghans, which would make sense as they were bred to run over flatter ground. They would not be incorrect as Afghans, just of a different type with a different purpose. Breeding for a single purpose tends to compromise other things. I think you are looking more for a general purpose type dog that is not too specialized?



Saluqihounds	Dec 5 2008, 11:40 PM Post #6
Administrator Posts: 1,568 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: March 31, 2006 Gender: Male Location: Scotland	Quote: Breeding for a single purpose tends to compromise other things. I think you are looking more for a general purpose type dog that is not too specialized? Yes and i think that is where the Kazakh dogs really appeal, there was such a huge variation in quarry, terrain and climate truely versatile dogs. Saying that, I work my Saluki with every bit as much variation and they do well enough the down side to Ameerah and Farouq is they lack coat for winter, they manage ok but ideally they could have a better winter jacket. With regard to intelligence I'm not convince an intelligent dog would run round and round a track chasing a bit of plastic, then again if it is their only outlet for their energy and prey drive then maybe would a bit more inclined to play along?



DeviodOvTalent	Dec 6 2008, 05:10 AM Post #7
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	Quote: With regard to intelligence I'm not convince an intelligent dog would run round and round a track chasing a bit of plastic, then again if it is their outlet for their energy and prey drive then maybe would a bit more inclined to play along? I'll agree with that. Certainly most conformation Afghans are not bred for their prey drive but they still have it. Just because it's not used does not mean it will go away, though there are some working dog purists that will not agree.



ohiovalley	Dec 6 2008, 06:43 PM Post #8
Advanced Member Posts: 172 Group: Members Member #154 Joined: August 19, 2008	I'll agree with you both there. I guess if narrowed down to a choice between a typically 'bred for show' Afghan hound, versus one that could at least run...I'd go for the racer. They seem quite sturdy an 'unstrung' in the rear, and just have a more natural appearance, to my eye. After seeing what had become of the breed in America...when I first came across Sally's...and then Werner's line in Germany...it was the look alone that caught my eye. I wasn't looking for a hunting dog, just an Afghan hound that looked like they used to.



saluqi	Dec 6 2008, 08:03 PM Post #9
Advanced Member Posts: 334 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: February 20, 2007 Gender: Male Location: England	DeviodOvTalent Dec 6 2008, 05:10 AM I'll agree with that. Certainly most conformation Afghans are not bred for their prey drive but they still have it. Just because it's not used does not mean it will go away, though there are some working dog purists that will not agree. I must be one of them then :lol1: because thats what I think after seeing show and working bred sight-hounds run live game, working bred for me every time :HOORAY: .



Saluqihounds	Dec 6 2008, 10:54 PM Post #10
Administrator Posts: 1,568 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: March 31, 2006 Gender: Male Location: Scotland	My neighbour at my last cottage keeps Afghans and shows them, she exercises them on my hunting grounds and they made me think twice about them. They are seriously intense when running rabbits, of course you are much more likely get a good hunter from good hunters but I believe it is still runs deep in some show/pet dogs and if they are in the hands of hunters or simply given the right opportunities I think many would be/are still very capable. Take my mother Siberian Husky, how many generations are there likely to of been since they were first brought from Siberia where they are bred for used for hunting? Yet the instinct and ability is still there in abundance, taken all quarry regularly



DeviodOvTalent	Dec 7 2008, 12:03 AM Post #11
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	Quote: My neighbour at my last cottage keeps Afghans and shows them, she exercises them on my hunting grounds and they made me think twice about them. They are seriously intense when running rabbits, of course you are much more likely get a good hunter from good hunters but I believe it is still runs deep in some show/pet dogs and if they are in the hands of hunters or simply given the right opportunities I think many would be/are still very capable. There is no reason you could not breed show and working lines together to increase instinct and working ability in the show lines and diversity on both sides. The trouble is that the show lines in many breeds have been bred for physical exaggerations that limit their ability to use the instincts. Saluqi, I never said they would be good at it, just that the instinct is still there :lol1:



Nelsonismyhero	May 20 2009, 12:15 AM Post #12
Newbie Posts: 1 Group: Members Member #184 Joined: December 30, 2008	Saluki Dec 5 2008, 11:40 PM Quote: With regard to intelligence I'm not convince an intelligent dog would run round and round a track chasing a bit of plastic, then again if it is their only outlet for their energy and prey drive then maybe would a bit more inclined to play along? Why is it that people assume that a dog who will run a lure is somehow less intelligent? Sighthounds should have the instinct to chase small, fast-moving objects regardless of whether they're real or not. All of my dogs will happily run both live game and the lure, and I do not consider them to be stupid for doing so. BTW, Sally Papins racing Afghans have been worked in the open field and have done very well. Out here almost all the whippets used for hunting are race-bred. Who said a race-bred dog can't hunt? Audrey



saluqi	May 20 2009, 09:38 AM Post #13
Advanced Member Posts: 334 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: February 20, 2007 Gender: Male Location: England	DeviodOvTalent Dec 7 2008, 12:03 AM There is no reason you could not breed show and working lines together to increase instinct and working ability in the show lines and diversity on both sides. The trouble is that the show lines in many breeds have been bred for physical exaggerations that limit their ability to use the instincts. show cross working salukis do well in the first generation must be the hybrid vigor from the two types which to me shows how far apart their growing. But if i was going to breed a working line rather than a one off competition dog i wouldn't put show blood in as it IMO would weaken the working blood.



DeviodOvTalent	May 20 2009, 06:16 PM Post #14
Queen of the Desert Posts: 488 Group: Members Member #71 Joined: January 25, 2007 Gender: Not Telling Location: USA	saluqi May 20 2009, 09:38 AM show cross working salukis do well in the first generation must be the hybrid vigor from the two types which to me shows how far apart their growing. But if i was going to breed a working line rather than a one off competition dog i wouldn't put show blood in as it IMO would weaken the working blood. This is what I was talking about on the other thread, regarding short-sighted breeding. Any line bred too closely is going to get itself into trouble eventually, it's health will decline. Inbreeding depression is a well known consequence. It becomes necessary to outcross. Crosses between working and show lines would be very useful to introduce heterozygosity, but it would require multiple backcrosses back to working lines to get back all the working ability. That is more planning that many people want to do, they want immediate gratification, and the dogs will suffer for it. There is a point when the breed as a whole must take precedence over the individuals desires. All of these people in the UK breeding to Khan Jihad, they don't have the interests of the BREED itself in mind. Another four or five generations, or maybe less, they are going to be in real trouble because they won't be able to find an outcross unless they go to show lines. There is a woman I read about recently in Sweden, I think, that has working Golden Retrievers. For health reasons, she crosses working and show lines. I believe she said the first generation crosses were fairly useless but the second generation cross back into working lines puts most of the working ability back in. Something to think about.



Saluqihounds	May 20 2009, 10:30 PM Post #15
Administrator Posts: 1,568 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: March 31, 2006 Gender: Male Location: Scotland	I personally don't have a problem with some of the show lines IMO most would be able to to the job if conditioned to it from young by people that know what they are doing. I've often thought about it with an Afghan. Young Show bred dog so long as it was physically sound (that would be the biggest problem) and entered with older working dogs would not fail IMO. Maybe you wouldn't find yourself at the top of coursing score card, but in real hunting where a dog can play to it's strengths without having to compete with another dogs ablities on the day.


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